There are hundreds of varieties of pasta, some with multiple names, and each with distinctive histories, design and structure. Pairing the right pasta shape with the right sauce can make or break a meal. But is there a “perfect” pasta shape?
On this episode of the "Extra Spicy" podcast, hosts Soleil Ho and Justin Phillips talk to Dan Pashman, host of The Sporkful podcast, about his invention of cascatelli, which means waterfalls in Italian. The conversation dives into Pashman's multiyear process of creating the noodle, which he documented on "The Sporkful," as well his criteria — "forkability," "sauceability" and "toothsinkability" — in creating an innovative pasta shape.
Listen to the episode by clicking on the player above, or on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Scroll down for an excerpt of the interview, edited and shortened for clarity.
SOLEIL: Tell us about pasta, Dan. It seems to be the thing that has brought you to everyone's attention lately, and you had this really great miniseries on "The Sporkful" about making this pasta (Mission ImPASTAble) which is very fun, if our listeners have not checked it out yet ... In short, what is the deal with you and pasta?
Dan: I'm a pretty hard-core pasta nerd, (but) I didn't actually think of myself that way. When I started out, I thought of myself as just a guy who liked pasta. It's taken a number of years and it was much harder than I expected it, but ... I could have 3-D-printed one single piece of pasta and taken a picture and put it on Instagram. I didn't want to do that. I wanted it to be real. So, that's what made the whole journey a lot more difficult. I wanted to not only create a new pasta shape, but to actually get it made and actually be able to sell it and share it with "Sporkful" listeners. And that was kind of where things got complicated.
JUSTIN: For people who know pasta from a distance, like the assumption is made that there are an infinite number of pasta shapes, but is it more like there's a finite number or how many are there out there like it?
Dan: Yeah. I mean, there's not an infinite number, but the exact number is a bit difficult to discern because we can't say for sure that there's not like one Nonna on a mountain top in Sicily who's the only one in the world that makes shape no one's seen. But as part of my series, I did talk to Maureen Fant who translated the "Encyclopedia of Pasta," which is kind of the seminal work on this subject. It's like the Bible for my purposes in this project. She said that there are about 350 shapes of pasta that she cataloged for the encyclopedia, but they go by about 1,200 names. So often you may have a shape that's basically identical, but in one region that call it one thing in another region, they call it something else. The most obscure ones are the handmade ones, because you can kind of do anything with your hands. They're only made in small batches, the better known ones are the ones that are able to be made through some industrial process because obviously they can be mass-produced.
So when I was setting out, one of the first things I did was just, I ate every pasta shape that I could get my hands on. ... I was trying to sort of be methodical about cataloging attributes. Like, what do I like, do I like tubes? Do I like flat? Do I like curls? Do I like ruffles? Do I like ridges? The big thing that I came away from that early testing was that I really like ruffles. I think ruffles are underutilized in pasta shapes. Ruffles do two great things. First, they increased surface area, they pick up a lot of sauce and they have little crevices that holds sauce and other bits of things. But also they have a very unique kind of playful mouthfeel. Chewing on ruffles is fun, and there's nothing else like it in pasta.
SOLEIL: I want to know what the worst pasta shapes are.
Dan: I mean, look, this will be controversial. I mean, angel hair is terrible. It just goes from zero to mush when you cook it...I don't think spaghetti's very good. That's not the worst, but it's overrated ... romanticism around it. ... It just doesn't have much surface area in relation to volume. It doesn't hold much sauce. You can't really sink your teeth into it. Yeah, you can wrap it around a fork and get a nice bite, but you know, that can be fraught when there's a lot of sauce around, it can be hard to separate and get a good bite. It just doesn't do that much. It's like the original pasta shape, but that also means that it's very primitive. It hasn't evolved in hundreds of years.
SOLEIL: Anyone, it seems, like anyone with their mindset could make their own pasta shape if they dare. Of course, like all you need is dough, right, and like some other stuff I would assume, but like, can you sort of condense down for the listeners? Like, what is the other stuff, like, what do you need to do this?
Dan: In my case, I basically needed two things. First. I needed a die, like the mold for the shape. That's basically how pasta is made. You make dough and you push it through a hole. That's has a certain shape to it. So I needed to get a die manufactured. And then I had to bring it to a pasta company. I had to convince a pasta company to work with me cause I wasn't going to like lease a factory. So I had to get the die made and bring it to the pasta company and get them to make the pasta using the die, all of which took much, much longer than I expected. I mean, like drove me to the brink of tears. On more than one occasion as you'll hear in our podcast series...there's only one pasta die designer in America working today. And he's busy, especially once COVID hit. ... And he's like, you know, call me in two months. And then there was no pasta companies that wanted to work with me. I thought like, why wouldn't a big company spend what for them will be minuscule amount of money to take a shot on this crazy idea and maybe it pans out. No, they weren't interested. So I was able to partner with this company called Sfoglini that's more of a midsize company. They're based in upstate New York. They make great pastas, and they were fantastic to work with. And so that's what I basically needed.
SOLEIL: I want to ask you an existential question if you are cool (with it). ... Do you think this would have taken off the way it did if you weren't Dan Pashman, the "Sporkful" guy?
Dan: Well, there's no question that having the podcast, as a platform helped, you know, like if I was just a guy. ... No, it would have been much harder. Definitely it helped. … I don't think of myself as being like a very influential person in the world of food media...I still feel weird thinking of myself as a member of food media, because I feel like almost everyone I know in food media has had a professional food training. They're like somehow trained chef and I'm ... really more like a radio-audio professional who kind of stumbled into food...there's no question that having a podcast with a loyal following helps and also just the fact that that I've been doing it for so long. ... I've been doing it for 11 years, and over all those years ... it's been featured in various places...so a lot of people I think have heard of "The Sporkful," even if they're not loyal listeners. So when I do something new, it's like, it's a lower bar. ... You both know, you're members of the press. If someone pitches you something and if the person attached to it is someone you heard of, even if you're not immersed in their work, you're more likely to be like, "Oh, let me look at this. What is this?" So there's no question that the fact that I've been out there for a while and have this platform was a big advantage. ... As a listener, I would resent that if ... my favorite podcast and suddenly the guy turned into a shill for his thing, and that's all he ever did, I'd be like, screw this!
[all laugh]
So, you know, it's about finding a balance. Like, yes, I'm sure I will use "The Sporkful" podcast in the future as I have in the past to help spread the word about the pasta shape. But I mean, I'm also excited that the pasta shape will bring people to "The Sporkful," because that's my original baby is the podcast. And as I said: I think of myself as an audio person first, so I take real pride in the quality of our podcast. If people hear about the pasta shape and it gets them to listen to the series that tells the story and brings people in, like that's exciting to me, too. So, there's a nice, I mean, I was going to say synergy, but that's such a corny corporate word ... but you know, I don't envision a day in which "The Sporkful" podcast just becomes a cascatelli infomercial.
[all laugh]
May 17, 2021 at 06:03PM
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How a podcaster created a new pasta shape - San Francisco Chronicle
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